tv PBS News Hour PBS July 31, 2013 5:30pm-6:31pm PDT
captioning sponsored by macneil/lehrer productions >> ifill: the obama administration released classified documents today outlining the national security agency's massive collection of domestic phone records. good evening, i'm gwen ifill. >> brown: and i'm jeffrey brown. on the "newshour" tonight: the release comes amid reports of a new n.s.a. spying program on internet activity. we look at the latest revelations and the secret court at the center of the controversy. >> ifill: then, ben bernanke's tenure as federal reserve chairman nears its end, as the debate over who will replace him begins.
we examine how that choice could affect the economic recovery. >> brown: egypt's government ordered police to take all means necessary to disband protests in support of the ousted president. margaret warner explores the potential for violence and the actions of the new military rule. >> ifill: and in india, child labor is outlawed, but a staggering number of children still toil away. fred de sam lazaro reports on efforts to change that practice. >> the combination of official and middle-class indifference, and dire poverty, drives perhaps 50 million children into the workplace. some as young as six or seven. >> ifill: that's all ahead on tonight's "newshour." >> major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by: >> supported by the john d. and catherine t. macarthur foundation. committed to building a more just, verdant and peaceful
world. more information at macfound.org >> and with the ongoing support of these institutions and foundations. and... >> this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting. and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> ifill: the american public learned a little more today about the sweeping surveillance of telephone communications, revealed by edward snowden. the government released heavily redacted documents that showed, broadly, how the national security agency uses the data. and, in london, "the guardian" newspaper published images of what analysts see, under a program known as "x-key-score." for more, we turn to charlie savage, who's covering the story for "the new york times." charlie savage, because you're covering this story, tell me what knew you saw in these
documents today. >> as you said, there were two sets of documents. there was an officially released set of documents that the intelligence community and the obama administration wanted the public to see. and those concerned this program which has been collecting for years ever phone call died or receiveed in the united states. and there was an unofficial release of documents they didn't want anyone to see and that concerns their vast vacuuming-- "they" being the national security agency-- vacuuming up of internet activity, apparently primarily of foreigners overseas from some 150 different sites scattered around the world. that would be browse, habits, search terms on google and other search web sites, what's being said in encrypted search programs. >> is that something perhaps foreign governments know we were doing? >> from the document we can see the five countries in the sort of anglosphere-- canada,
britain, new zealand, australia, and the united states-- must all be participating in this knowingly, but the number of dots where there are collection site servers scatter around the world, including some countries not friendly to the united states, suggest there are countries that didn't know this was happening and i suspect we will see some reaction around the world as this starts to get digested. >> the obama administration has said since the beginning we're gathering metadata but we're not actually listening in on phone calls, we're not actually gathering information, unless we have some reason. was there anything in either of these two sets of documents today that would undercut that argument? >> again, you have to separate the two of them, and that also goes to the statement that you cited the administration as saying. when it comes to collecting metadata, calling logs-- who called whom-- inside the united states, yes, by definition that doesn't include content, what was said. of course they do wiretap all the time, just not through that's program and there are extra rules in court approval
for wiretapping inside the united states. there are essentially no rules for surveillance abroad. the u.s. constitution does not cover noncitizens not on u.s. soil. the domestic wiretapping laws are written to exclude that kind of foreign intelligence collection activity. it's kind of open season. whatever a country can get away with, it does, in the espionage world dispp what we've seen in the last few weeks with all these leaks from edward snowden from the n.s.a. is the united states really can do quite a lot, more even than was long suspected about their capacity to just vamume up fronta procesd spy on what the world is doing on its telecommunications networks. >> the domestic documents declassified confirmed some of the things the edward snowden leaks told us about major phone companies like verizon turning over documents to the government. do we have any idea how widely that-- how much information was gathered and what use the government makes of it? >> well, so, this is the key
question that senators will today at the senator judiciary committee hearing and lawmakers generally have been asking about this domestic phone log collection program involving americans' communications, which is we can see how on paper it's useful. you already have the data. it's all in one big set. if you want to go look and see you know this person is a suspect, who have they been in contact with? who have those people in turn been in contact with. you can very quickly do that if you've already collected the data of everybody. if you have the heydemann stack, you can go searching for the needles. the question they keep asking is has this actually thwarted any plot? we know the collection overseas appears to have been quite useful. this data leaked today suggested 300 terrorists ases of 2008 have been identified from this overseas collection, but what about the domestic collection that has this implication for americans' privacy rights. and the intelligence community has really struggled to come up with compelling examples of how
this is not merely a theoretically useful tool but once that stopped something from happening that otherwise would have happened. >> are they persuading anybody in the house or senate that that is what we saw last week, that the house vote came very close to outlawing this kind of activity. there was still more skepticism today? certainly i think most notably today the judiciary committee hearing, the democratic chairman of that committee i commit a vel member of the senate-- patrick leahy-- said he had been looking at a list of terrorist events disrupted by various surveillance programs and he saw very little on it that suggested there was utility to this american phone log program. he said if it doesn't seem to be effective it should be shut down, and soinar he's not persuaded. despite fact that members of the intelligence committee-- at least leaderes of them who knew about this all along-- have been trying to defend it and the intelligence community in the obama administration-- a lot of
which are career officials who span administrations-- having trying to defend it. we see skepticism, bipartisan skepticism in both chambers of congress. >> sounds like more shoes yet to drop. charlie savage of the "new york times," thanks for keeping track for us. >> thank you. >> brown: still to come on the "newshour": the secret court at the center of government surveillance; why the head of the federal reserve matters; the potential for further unrest in egypt and child labor in india. but first, the other news of the day. here's kwame holman. >> holman: the federal reserve downgraded its assessment of the economy today. the central bank reported only modest growth-- slightly worse than the moderate reading it gave in june. that suggested there's no early end in sight to the fed's economic stimulus efforts. the reaction on wall street was mixed. the dow jones industrial average lost 21 points to close at 15,499. the nasdaq rose nearly ten points to close at 3,626. the u.s. house has given final approval to a student loan deal, just in time for the fall semester.
the bipartisan agreement already passed the senate. it will tie interest rates to the performance of the financial markets. that means undergraduates who take out their own loans will pay 3.9% this fall. the interest rates would rise over time as the economy improves. president obama paid a rare call on congress today. he talked up his economic ideas to fellow democrats and tried to lm concerns about his health care law. >> hello, everybody! >> holman: the president arrived first on the house side of the capitol, and later after a closed-door session that lasted nearly an hour, he said his message was simple. >> jobs, middle class, growth. >> holman: house minority leader nancy pelosi said her members were enthusiastic. >> it was a really masterful presentation that he made on the subject of jobs in the future. and today, we had the chance to go back and forth on some of the issues that, so he could hear
some of our priorities, and we his. >> holman: other democrats said those issues included the public's confusion over the new health care law and fears the prospects for immigration reform legislation may be dimming. later, mr. obama crossed the capitol, for a similar meeting with senate democrats. maine independent angus king-- who caucuses with the democrats- - said on health care, the president urged them to remind people that a lot of good things are happening. congress also faces a september 30 deadline to approve new spending bills, or risk a government shutdown. washington state's patty murray said the president also warned republicans must keep budget issues separate from the looming debt limit legislation. >> he made it very clear that he was not going to negotiate over the debt ceiling-- we have got to stop lurching from crisis to crisis, in his words and in our words-- and that we are going to >> holman: lawmakers now are making ready to leave for their five-week summer recess.
for his part, mr. obama will continue his push on economic policy, next tuesday, with a speech on homeownership in phoenix. later, house republican leaders withdrew a bill that would make sweeping cuts in transportation, housing and community development funding for the coming fiscal year. conservatives had pushed the measure to meet lower spending levels spelled out in the house republicans' budget outline. in iraq, a wave of drive-by shootings and bombings across the country has killed at least 26 people. several blasts targeted shi-ite and sunni mosques overnight in baghdad. that followed bombings on monday that killed 58 iraqis. more than 700 people have died in the violence this month. civilian casualties in afghanistan have risen sharply this year. the united nations reported today they were up 23% in the first six months of the year. from january to june, the u.n. counted 1,319 civilian deaths and more than 2,500 wounded. it blamed taliban insurgents for 74% of the casualties.
secretary of state john kerry arrived in pakistan this evening, for an unannounced visit. he's to meet with newly elected prime minister nawaz sharif. the visit came as pakistani police said they've recaptured more than 40 inmates who escaped from a prison monday night. taliban attackers had freed some 250 prisoners in all. the 35 guards on duty at the site were overwhelmed by 150 attackers who carried guns, bombs and grenades. reports said only ten of the guards were armed. thousands of people in zimbabwe headed to the polls today to elect a president, and possibly, end an era. incumbent president robert mugabe was trying to keep his 33-year grip on power in the african nation. we have a report from neil connery of "independent television news." >> reporter: first light-- but in the chill of dawn, there is
hope in the air. the polls have just opened, and already the queues stretch out, such is the hung tore make their voice heard, as zimbabwe votes. opposition candidate ian mcconey arrives to cast his ballot. he believes this could be the most significant day for this country since independence. >> 1980 was a watershed election from colonial days, and this is a watershed election for freedom. >> reporter: but as zimbabwe's only president since independence 33 years ago voted, he said the people had a choice to make and he promised he'll go if he loses. the man challenging him, is confident he has the support needed to win. >> well, i thought that. >> reporter: but with the voters registered only issued yesterday, and widespread allegations of vote rigging, critics doubt this can be judged
a free and fair election but despite those fears, across zimbabwe, wherever we traveled, the determination to vote was clear. the large turnout in this election could prove crucial. the opposition fear this bool on the is going to be fixed. but they say that their ability to counter that increases with the number of voters who turn out. as zimbabweans consider this country's future, they hope their vote will count. >> i'm happy because we have done everything so peacefully, and everything is moving so smoothly. >> i feel happy to vote today. we choose a president. >> reporter: but will that choice be respected? if not, then the consequences for this nation could be devastating. >> holman: zimbabwe was rocked by violence in 2008, amid charges mugabe had stolen that election. he and tsvangirai eventually agreed to share power in a unity
government. those are some of the day's major stories. now, back to jeff. >> brown: as new revelations of data gathering continue to come out, the role of the foreign intelligence surveillance, or fisa, court has come under increasing scrutiny. we take a closer look now. the story of the court goes back to 1978. the senate's church committee among others had chronicled surveillance abuses by the government brought to light in the watergate scandal. one response: congress created the court to review warrants for national security investigations. proceedings are closed and many years and several amendments later, the snowden disclosures of surveillance by the n.s.a. have raised new questions. on sunday, for example, the senate's democratic majority whip-- dick durbin-- argued the court is hardly impartial. >> and there should be another in this case, it's fixed in a way, it's loaded. there's only one case coming before the fisa, the government's case.
let's have an advocate for someone standing up for civil liberties to speak up about the privacy of americans when they make each of these decisions. >> brown: but at today's senate hearing, deputy attorney general james cole said there's no clear precedent for changing the way warrants are approved. >> traditionally, when you issue search warrants, when you issue wire taps and things like that, in the criminal law you don't have an adversary process that takes place if there isn't somebody on the other side. so there's a legal tradition that the way we've been doing it is certainly one that we've done in other contexts. >> brown: another issue: the fisa court's 11 judges are chosen by the chief justice of the u.s. supreme court and all of the current members have been selected by chief justice john roberts. republican senator jeff flake of arizona raised that issue at today's hearing. >> all right. there's been some criticism that the process that we have for the selection of these judges may lead to more republican judges being appointed than democratic or republicans appointing judges than democrats appointing
judges. do you sense or see any difference in your experience, all of you, with-- is that an issue that somebody ought to be concerned about, or have you seen any difference in decisions rendered? >> from my experience, i haven't seen any decisions of the judges-- our judges and they're being guided by the law and not necessarily by politics, but that's certainly a topic we would leave to the sound discretion of the congress. >> brown: already, there are proposals in congress bring raised to change the way the court operates, and how its members are named. we raise these questions and more now, with james bamford, a journalist, lawyer and author of several books on the national security agency. and steven bradbury, head of the office of legal counsel in the justice department during the george w. bush administration. welcome to both of you. >> thank you. >> james bamford, we heard earlier this gwen's discussion about new revelations what, do you think of those and what do they tell us about this role of the fisa court? >> these new revelations are really an expansive look at a much more expansive eavesdropping capability. we looked before at the
telephone and the e-mail. now, this is pretty much the internet. and it's very worrisome in the sense that people when they communicate on the internet are communicating basically their thoughts, their deepest thoughts in their minds a lot of times. their thoughts sometimes that they don't want to share with anybody else. if you have this megacollection that's going oagain, it raises will the question of what oversight is there and what checks and balances are there? we didn't see there were very many checks and balances on the other systems. and maybe the same thing applies here. >> brown: we'll walk through some of those issues, but first, generally, what's your thought steven greenhouse. >> i think it's important to focus on what the government declassified and dits dis closed about the fisa process. two things i take from that-- one, it shows there was a lot of detail provided to congress in 2009 and 2011, about the telephone metadata collection, great detail describing the collection, the scope, how it
was used, the limitation. >> brown: we're saying it wasn't just left to the court. congress had a says well. >> that's correct. and the documents show that every member of congress was invited was to review those descriptions in congress and so had the opportunity to understand the full scope. they also disclosed the fisa court order, the primary order for the telephone metadata collection. and i think it very clearly shows the degree of oversight, all of the protections and the limitations. goes into great detail, very consistent with what the government has been describing in its hearings on the hill. >> brown: but you see that and you see not enough oversight. >> well, i-- >> brown: some people have used this "rubber stamp" term. >> i read the documents that the government released today on t the-- where they say they briefed every member of congress on this program, but i saw nowhere in those document where's it described the full extent of it. it said this is a very big program, but it didn't anywhere
say that we're targeting every single person in the united states, 300 million people. so that's why you have this reaction from people in congress who are saying, "we had no idea it was this big, that it was every single person, every single day, every single telephone call the metadata from it. >> brown: what's the chief problem you have with the fisa court itself? as we said, it was set up in 1978 under some previous times of concern, right? >> that's right. it was working very fine up until the bush administration. and that's when the must have bh administration decided to violate the law and go around the fisa court. >> brown: how? >> well, they decided that they didn't trust the court to-- they felt the court was going to probably disapprove their plan for this warrantless eavesdropping program so they decided to violate the foreign intelligence surveillance act and go around the court and do
the warrantless eavesdropping without ever informing the court-- although, they told the chief justice-- the presiding judge in the court, but not-- asked the judge not to tell the other judges. so you have this-- after 9/11, you have this effort by the administration not only to bypass the court but to weaken the court after these revelations were discovered. so that was what happened in the fisa amendments act where they actually weakened the court. and i think that's what's changed a lot of the dynamics in the court since then. >> brown: i know you see an alternative history here. >> i do. i think this is a great story in terms of history for the united states because i think we faced the challenges of 9/11. there were limitations seen in the system. it wasn't workable for what needed to be done to protect the country. and congress and the president over the years since have come together and we have new statutes, amendments toifies athat have made the process more
effective, more streamlined, and i think that's been a very good story. >> brown: if the fisa court has approved-- it sounds like most everything that's been brought to it-- does that suggest that it is doing enough to look at all the data, look at the questions, raise the issues, the concerns that people have about privacy? >> well, in fact, in my experience, the fisa court and the legal advisers who are permanent staff to the court ask a lot of hard questions up front. in other words, they get read-ahead copies of the applications. there's a lot of back-and-forth, a lot of testing, a lot of additional information provided. so there's a good understanding of the legal basis and factual basis for applications when they're actually signed and submitted so that the court process can move under efficiently and quickly. >> brown: what do you think of that? what do you think needs to be done? what would you like to see done to strengthen the court? >> there are a couple of things,
first of all, the court is packed, as somebody just said earlier. you've got 11 judges-- you have 10 out of 11 judges that are appointed by a chief judge who really appoints them as part of his own party. they're all republican appoint ease, pretty much, conservative people. so you've got them very much packed in one ideological viewpoint. and second of all, it's all ex parte. in other words, there's only one side that argue argues in front, and that's the government. so there are different ways to get around that is you can appoint a sort of professional advocate who is fully cleared and could argue both sides. this isn't a normal wiretapping cairs casewhere we're talking about one criminal defendant in ray bank robbery or something. this is where you'r you're talkg about 300 million people having their records taken. there's no comparison. and you can also have the judges
appointed by the federal appeals court judges. >> brown: is this an area where we could get any agreement, that there are some reforms possible? >> i don't think reforms are needed in the system. but, obviously, congress will look at options. i don't believe the chief justice has made any appointments based on partisan politics. we have a tradition in this country, when a federal judge has been confirmed to the bench for lifetime appointment, the judge is not a political person at that point, and independent judgment is brought to bear. and i think that's-- i think the chief justice works with the administrative office of the judiciary on these appointments, and it's a question of which judges are interested in serving and have the time to serve. there's a lot of questions that go into that, and i have faith that the chief justice has done a good job. in terms of the advocate, difficult practical issues there. you can't create a new office that's not in the executive
branch or not working under the court. so it's going to be in the system if you're going to have a special advocate like that. and i'm not sure it would really achieve what the advocates of that favor. >> brown: all right, well i know that and other religion on the table now in congress. for now we'll leave it there, james bamford, steve bradbury, thank you. >> thank you, jeff. >> thank you. >> ifill: now, why it matters who runs the federal reserve. judy woodruff has that. >> woodruff: federal reserve board chairman ben bernanke will step down at the end of his term next january, but the discussion of who president obama might tap to replace him is already well underway. to update us, we turn to long- time fed-watcher and "wall street journal" economics editor david wessel. he is also author of "in fed we trust: ben bernanke's war on the great panic." david wessel, welcome back to the "newshour." >> good to be with you, judy. >> woodruff: before we talk about choosing the next fed
chairman, let me ask you about today's statement from the fed, about the economy, the story kwame report aid few minute ago. how did you read that? >> i read it as the fed was going out of its way to say nothing. they crafted a statement that reflected some developments in the economy but they sent no new signal about their plans for winding down bond buying or changing interest rates. it was a no-news event. >> woodruff: let's talk about the position of being the chairman of the federal reserve. how important a job is this, not just monetary policy but economic policy? >> i think it's pretty important. we've seen in the last couple of years how important ben bernanke was in helping to manage the world economy during this devastating financial crisis. we know from history that paul volcker, alan greenspan, ben bernanke, the chairman, even though he's one of 19 people on the committee, has enormous amount of sway, becomes a symbol of confidence in the government, and it's more important now than ever because the dodd-frank law gave the fed a whole lot more
power and oversight over the financial system, and that will also be the responsibility of the next fed chairman. >> woodruff: so the names we're hearing the most, supposedly the front-runners are the current vice chairman man of the fed, janetielen, and larry summers. david, are they the front-runners? and if so, why? >> i think they're the front-runners. i think they're both people who are in sync with the president. in some respects-- although they've been seen as rivals -- they have more in common than they have apart. larrysomeers is a product of harvard, janet yellin of yale. they both seem strongly at this time in our economic history, the government, particularly the fiscal side of government-- tax and spend ago should be more aggressive. both of them believe the fed has a pretty important role to play in getting the economy going again. i think there may be some
differences in nuance about how they would actuallyin actually e job when they got there. their personalities are very different. i think in terms of the fed policy we'd expect, i think there's not that much difference between them. >> woodruff: i want to ask you about that. there are prominent democrats coming out and talking about larry summers' position on deregulation before the financial collapse in 2008, and they're questioning whether if larry summeres were chosen the current fed policy of bond buying, stimulating the economy, getting the government involved in the economy, would continue. >> well, i think what summers has said is that he doesn't think this quantitative easing, this bond buying does much good, but he doesn't think it does much harm, either. so on that balance, given how bad the economy si think you would expect him to continue the policies of bernanke, which may involve pulling back. but on regulatory things, i think there is a difference. mr. summers has become a symbol of the clinton-era deregulation of the financial markets and i think people objecting to him on
substance, as opposed to personality-- which is a whole other issue-- are worried he is too close to wall street. he's actually been working for citybank in his years since leaving the white house-- and not skeptical enough of the banks and they think janet yellin would be more so. >> woodruff: i wanted to ask you about that. when it comes to the political leadership in the-- in this stee and wall street, how do they see janet yellin? >> i think a lot of them see janet yellin as the not larry summers. he seems to be a number of detractors among liberal democrats in the senate and house. a bunch of house women signed a petition today calling to the president to appoint janet yellin. but some of this is just kind of posturing. the real decision maker here is the president. he knows larry summers much better than he knows janet yellin. he seems to feel, from what he said to members of the house and senate caucuses today, that it's important to have someone who is a good crisis manager, and that
kind of sounds more lieb the summers resume than the yellin resume. but this blow-back could influence his decision. >> woodruff: as you mentioned, summers' name came up in the session the president had with democratic members of congress and they were critical. >> and he seems to have defended larry summers, although we're not room and we don't know the context. the other thing interesting, he mentioned a third player, don cohen, who would be a surprise dark horse, but i think it was the president's way of saying let's not boil this down to a janet versus larry mudd fest. >> woodruff: you mentioned the women members of congress who signed this petition. how much is gender seen as a factor? she would be the first woman. >> you know, it's hard to exclude gender as a factor. on one hand, you have larry summers who got thrown out of the presidency in harvard in part because he made some offensive remarks about women and science and engineering. you have the president who is
accused of running an "old boy" network. you have a very credible female candidate. so there are people who think if you can't get a female chairman of the federal reserve now, if not now, when? on the other hand, i suspect that to some extent the president's going to think about that and make a choice on other factors, but outside the white house, that seems to have taken a huge role. >> woodruff: it was noticed the administration named a woman deputy treasury secretary today, and wondered if there was any-- >> well, it's interesting. it's a woman who comes from the federal reserve. so there are two female governors on the federal reserve board now, and in addition to janet yellin, they're both leaving. one resigned. i expect it had nothing to do with the fed chairmanship but it certainly will be cite bide the white house if they appoint larry summers or some other man, they'll point to the fact that's we have a woman treasury secretary, and a woman head of the budget office. >> woodruff: david wessel, thank you very much. >> you're welcome.
>> brown: we return again to the turmoil in egypt. the country's cabinet announced a further crackdown against the muslim brotherhood today, ordering the clear out of the group's protest sites. margaret warner reports. >> warner: the order to police to disband the protests came from the interim government this afternoon. >> relying on the people's mandate to the state to deal with terrorism and violence, which threaten the fall of the state and destruction of the nation. the cabinet has decided to take all means necessary to face these dangers and put and end to it. >> warner: as the news spread, supporters of ousted president morsi stood warily at their two campsites in cairo, scenes of their month-long, standoff with the regime. a senior official of morsi's muslim brotherhood issued a bloody forecast. >> ( translated ): there are expectations of a massacre taking place in front of the eyes of the whole world. the free people in egypt and the world must stand against this
stupid cabinet mandate for the police to end the sit-in protests. >> warner: over the weekend, security forces battled pro- morsi demonstrators, killing more than 80. it was the worst spasm of violence since morsi was deposed july 3. hundreds more were injured and bodies of the dead overwhelmed makeshift morgues. in washington today, u.s. state department spokeswoman marie harf voiced concern about today's announcement. that egyptian police will put an end to the protests. >> well we've urged the interim government and security forces to respect the right of peaceful assembly. that obviously includes sit ins. >> warner: so far, the obama white house has refused to label morsi's ouster a coup. that designation would force a suspension of u.s. aid. the administration has put a hold on the sale of four f-16s to egypt. but today, in the u.s. senate, kentucky republican rand paul made a bid to cut off all u.s. military aid entirely. >> do you know what the money is
spent on? tanks. tanks roll over people in protest. i have no love lost for the muslim brotherhood but they've disappeared them. we're going to be giving money to the military to disappearing people. >> warner: that drew fire even from fellow republicans. lindsey graham of south carolina said continuing the u.s. military aid is crucial. >> but why are we selling weapons to egypt? because if we don't, someone else will. it's not a question of whether they're going to buy fighter planes, it's a question of who they're going to buy them from. >> warner: in the end, paul's measure was soundly rejected. for more on today's announcement by egypt's new government, and how the u.s. is handling the turmoil there, i'm joined by michele dunne, director of the atlantic council's center for the middle east. and samer shehata, associate professor of international studies at the university of oklahoma. welcome back to both of you.
mr. shehata, let me start with you, what is behind the new government's decision to make this announcement and make it clear they're not even going to allow peaceful demonstrations? >> well, i think they have come to the conclusion the continued sit-ins are an obstacle to the transition plan they've put forward and an obstacle, also, for egypt regaining some kind of stability. and that means international investment, the wheels of commerce and the economy moving forward, and that they need to end the sit-ins, and i think some believe or hope to eradicate the muslim brotherhood from egyptian politics? >> warner: do you think they're trying to crush the muslim brotherhood, not just quell the demonstrations, let traffic flow again but actually put them out of business? >> well, that seems to be the effort. several of the senior leaders of the brotherhood today were charged with some serious crimes. there's been talk of even outlawing the brotherhood as a movement, and it was outlawed in the past. so that seems to be the case.
now, there may be an effort here to put on enough pressure to get the brotherhood to just accept the new reality, accept that morsi was removed and that the political game moves on. however -- >> warner: it's time for them to get in the game, which is what the government is saying. >> it seems unlikely the brotherhood is going to accept that. >> warner: this new government-- the general is clearly a central role. there is this civilian government. are they behind this? or is the military running the show? >> i think clearly the general is rung the show, and they are behind it to a certain extent. there are-- there's talk that one has threatened to resign. again, i think there's another point that needs to be made here. a number of ministers in government are mubarak holdovers who have reemerged so there is a
fear among some that they are reconstituting themselves. >> this will be-- if they do crack down on the sit-in, this will be the third time. we've had two other sit-ins, where the police used a great deal of force, and somewhere between 50 and 80 people were killed the first time, inspector between eighty and 120 the second time. and, you know, what we're hearing is that these pro-morsi demonstrators have no intention of leaving. >> warner: now how has the brotherhood been handling this? there were reports in mid-july about 10 days after morsi was ousted, that privately, there were talks going on between some of the brotherhood senior leadership and the military about reaching some accommodation. has that just broken down, or was that for real? >> it's not clear what kind of a
dialogue is taking place between the brother exphood current rulers of egypt paps you know, catherine ashton, was there and she met with the brotherhood people as well as people in the government. there is likely there is some negotiation. i think michele is right-- both sides are flexing their muscle and trying to reach some kind of a deal. i think it's unlikely, but northeastern university, there is something going on there. the brotherhood want to be band. they don't want the leadership imperezonned. they don't want the funds confiscated. they want a role in politics. at the same time, they have to get on board that this is a post-morsi world. >> warner: what i'm being told is the brotherhood is saying their non-negotiatal demand is morsi has to be reinstate odor a fig leaf. >> the brother hoopped is trying to hold on to the moral high ground that they feel they had, that they had a democratically elected president removed by
coup. there are some initiatives to, for example, allow there to be a referendum or some kind of a vote. the brotherhood might agree to something like that, but so far, we've had no indication that the military, which is as samer said, calling the shots, would be willing to do something like that. >> warner: so to both of you, who does this do to the quand reerk the fine line the u.s. has been trying to walk now for nearly a month, since july 3-- not calling this a coup, not cutting off aid, a lot of backchannel communications, right, between defense secretary, secretary of state, and their counter-parts. i mean, is the u.s. having any influence at all? what does today's development do to their ability to keep that balancing act going? >> i think the united states really has to make it clear-- not necessarily publicly but certainly privately-- that if the u.s.-egyptian relationship is going to be maintained, human rights have to be recognized, and there can't be an excessive use of force against any protesters, whether it's the
brotherhood or others. and i hope that message is being made at the highest level. >> warner: do you think it's getting through? >> it doesn't seem that the egyptian military leadership has taken any of the advice the u.s. has given. you know, as this whole thing has unfolded over the last few weeks. look, egypt is a big, important country, it's next door to israel. the united states is very reluctant to cut egypt loose. that's what they they feel they would be doing by suspending assistance but the united states is going to be facing a whole different question in the coming weeks. if there really is this full-on confrontation between the brotherhood and the military and a real crackdown the question for the united states is going to become can we be complicity in this? with key continue to send aid to a military carrying out this kind of oppression? >> warner: michele dunne, the brother hoopped is basically saying now this new government, supposedly representing democratic forces, is just reverting to the old repression
of the mubarak era? are they right about that? is that a fair charge? the interior minister has made some really troubling statements until last few days. as samer indicated this cabinet say real mix. you have some liberals and so forth, and old mubarak people but the interior minister has been saying basically we're back and the secret police are back and we're going to start monitoring politics and religion and so forth as we did in the mubarak era. >> this is the tragedy of the situation, i think we are further away from the aspirations of the uprising that led to the overthrow of mubarak now than we've have ever have been. we want aid society based on the rule of law, recognition of political rights, the police to recognize the dignity of citizens and not abuse them regularly-- as was the case-- civilian control of the military and civilian forces and we're not seeing that. >> warner: samer shehata, michele dunne, thank you.
>> ifill: and now we take a look at illegal child labor in india and the ongoing struggle to end it. "newshour" special correspondent fred de sam lazaro reports. >> reporter: hen kailash satyarti conducts rescue raids of underage workers, he always bring along cameras to document evidence. on a hot summer afternoon, satyarti's group quietly fanned out in the city's bakery district, rounding up children into waiting vehicles. a local magistrate and police contingent were along in case there was any trouble. >> reporter: at a government processing center, they'd determine if these children were already registered as missing or if they'd been sold to their employers. >> these are all government officials, a magistrate, they're all here to help you. >> reporter: that's what he said to the young men. he told me not all officials are
reliable allies and that this days total of 22, for instance, should have been much bigger, he >> we wanted to rescue at least 50 to 60 children from two areas but many of them are already hidden so when we reached there we could not find most of the children. >> reporter: who tips them off? sometimes police, sometimes other authorities or sometimes the local people. he said the combination of official and middle class indifference and dire poverty drives perhaps 50 million indian children into the workplace. most are from the minority muslim, tribal or lower caste hindu communities. many are bonded-sold, that is, into virtual slavery. there conditions as invisible as they are deplorable. qtr let me see your hands. what we have said is that children's hands should have books in them, pen and pencils in them. >> ( translated ): but in our
helplessness, we have to do what we do. >> ( translated ): helpless, yes, but we will see to your studies and try to get work for your mother and father, god willing. >> reporter: india actually has laws against child labor. school is mandatory up to age 14. and there are funds to rehabilitate rescued children. despite all that, satyarti says it's mainly up to agencies like his to make sure the laws are actually implemented. >> ( translated ): i am free! i am free! >> this is mukti ashram, a transitory rehabilitation center for freed bonded children. all the children have been rescued by us over the last one month or so. first of all we have to assert in them that they are free. >> reporter: they haven't conceptualized it yet? not really because they cannot do it so fast.
>> reporter: one tell tale symptom these the two pre adolescent newcomers still were not comfortable enough to truthfully answer showed of their ordeal came in response to a simple first question: how old are you? "15," they said, in boys choir voices. 15, a legal working age. more accurate are the stories they shared-of abuse when they worked in the embroidery business, notorious for its use of children. >> ( translated ): we worked from 8:00 a.m. until 12 midnight. >> ( translated ): if you were >> reporter: niaz ali told of how, one day, a trafficker came he gave niaz's parents money to take the boy to bombay where he promised he'd be taught a trade and could earn a good living. how much money did they give
your parents? >> 20,000. >> reporter: that's about $400, a large sum for parents who were not difficult to convince that this is their child's ticket out of dire poverty. >> almost all the parents are illiterate. in most cases, the parents have not traveled to delhi or mumbai or big places, so they have no idea about the distance. i always advocate that poverty, child labor and illiteracy are three interrelated cause and consequence factors. >> reporter: kailash satyarti is an engineer by training but calls himself a gandhian by inspiration. he began his advocacy 30 years ago in india's rug industry- where child labor was pervasive- taking a message to consumers in germany and the u.s. >> i had a strong belief that once a person is sensitized towards child slavery, whether it could be carpet or shoes or apparels, you cannot limit that
social concern and social motivation and that worked. >> reporter: today, a group he founded, now called goodweave, offers a labeling system that guarantees that no child labor has been used in making the rugs. dozens of rug merchants and retailers in the u.s., like some 70 indian exporters have licensing agreements with goodweave. they agree to unannounced inspections of their factories and suppliers like this one in the northern city of varanasi, producing rugs bound for australia. >> namaste. >> reporter: after a quick look around, goodweave staffers interviewed weavers and examined employment records. this producer got a clean bill of health. but inspector javed says its still sometimes a cat and mouse game.
>> ( translated ): sometimes well enter a place and hear people running or scattering, th're using children.ve that if there are just adults there'd be no reason for people to run. >> reporter: goodweave indias chief manoj bhatt says a big challenge for western importers is to know whether to trust all the layers of subcontractors. at least 500 supply goodweaves 70 approved licensees. >> the supply chain is very, very decentralized and scattered in different districts, and sometimes in different states in india. so they have to believe what their exporters are telling them and even for exporters, its it's really hard to actually keep track of what is happening in their supply chains. >> reporter: it's villages like this in eastern uttar pradesh that are the starting links in the long supply chain that leads to the export houses and rug
showrooms in the west. from dawn to dusk you can hear the sound of hundreds of carpet looms. they're housed in ramshackle buildings. we popped in unannounced, posing as tourists and at times received as prospective buyers. using hidden cameras and cell phones-in uttar pradesh and even more remote areas like the malda district near bangladesh, it was easy to document clearly underage boys toiling alongside veterans, who'd probably being doing here since they were boys. the appropriate authorities rarely patrol here and good weaves bhatt says it's out of their control. >> that's one of our limitations. we cannot access looms, which are not part of our licensees. >> reporter: when they are discovered, boys like zahidul are returned to their families. he was found four years ago when he was ten. poverty might have driven him to work but zahidul was not trafficked into the job.
his mother faratun bibi says he volunteered to go to work in the carpet business after his father, the family bread winner, suffered a stroke, worsening their already desperate condition. >> ( translated ): after his illness, zahidul himself said, "mom, why don't you let me go to work? i could earn some money. in fact the middleman didn't want to take him, said he was underage. but i pleaded with him, please do it for me. >> reporter: just days after he began working zahidul was found hiding in a carpet factory hundreds of miles from his home. >> ( translated ): they told me to roll myself into a blanket, that people were coming to get me and put me in school. >> reporter: goodweave did enrol him in school but also provides something neither parents nor his two older siblings ever did. a stipend each month to help the family make ends meet.
now 14, zahidul is in fourth grade and still struggles. he may never thrive in school but goodweaves bhatt says even basic reading ability can be useful. arithmetic is essential to count ones salary. >> the idea here is to break that cycle of illiteracy, so that this, you know, literate person can, you know, understand the value of education for their kids and, you know, in the next >> reporter: goodweave, which has officies in washington dc by some estimates the number of children working in south asian rug looms is down to about a fourth of the one million who once did. kailash satyarti has shifted his it comes at a cost. he's been beaten up several times and two colleagues lost their lives. child labor is a critical part of india's largely unorganized economy, he says, and for one
simple reason: they're cheap. you can buy a child for lesser price than an animal. buffalos and cows are much more expensive than buying a child to work full time for the whole of his life. >> reporter: it's one explanation he says why india has 50 million children working full time and at the same time 50 million adults-- many of them parents of those working children-- are unemployed. >> ifill: fred's reporting is a partnership with the under-told stories project at saint mary's university in minnesota. >> brown: again, the major developments of the day: the obama administration released classified documents outlining the national security agency's massive collection of domestic phone records. the federal reserve downgraded its assessment of economic growth from moderate to modest. the u.s. house gave final approval to a bill linking interest rates on student loans to the financial markets meaning
a cut this fall. and egypt's military-backed rulers ordered police to put an end to sit-ins by supporters of ousted president morsi. a cabinet statement said the ongoing protests are a threat to national security. >> ifill: tonight, we're asking online: is it even possible to guarantee a job for every american? kwame holman has more. >> holman: duke economist william darity says there is a solution to persistent unemployment-- a federally funded public service employment program. read how that would work in darity's guest essay in making sense. and on science wednesday, unlocking the secrets of the jellyfish sting. and join us tomorrow for two live chats: gwen teams up with the "washington post's" dan balz. they'll be fielding questions on politics and journalism. and on twitter, we'll be discussing the pope's recent comments on gays. both chats begin at 1:00 p.m. eastern time. find the details are on our homepage. all that and more is on our website newshour.pbs.org. >> brown: and again, to our honor roll of american service
>> ifill: and that's the "newshour" for tonight. on thursday, npr's deborah amos will bring us the latest from syria. i'm gwen ifill. >> brown: and i'm jeffrey brown. we'll see you online and again here tomorrow evening. thanks for joining us. good night. >> major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by: ♪ ♪ moving our economy for 160 years. bnsf, the engine that connects
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>> you are watching the "journal " coming to you live from dw. >> coming up -- the drone that never took off. germany's defense minister sticks to his guns over a botched security project. >> germany's engineering giant siemens picks a new ceo after a messy battle. >> and a -- election day in zimbabwe. polls have been closing as monitors give the votes the thumbs up. thumbs up.